28:16 – Sitting outside on this blustery winter morning talking about Mike Karels, Gordon Bell, Dave Ross, and Jim Kloss, with some trademark digressions and a hot mug of coffee. Licence for this track: Creative Commons Attribution 3.0. Released June 2024 on The Overnightscape Underground, an Internet talk radio channel focusing on a freeform monologue style, with diverse and fascinating hosts; this one notwithstanding.