And so he started trying to understand how did they do that, and he found this process of working together as a team, getting out of functional silos but working together and in collaboration with customers to do this iterative and incremental development as a team. And from there it took off in the software industry, and then turned out to be so successful there that other parts of the organization, particularly as IT started spreading to more and more parts of not just a company but individual products, that they started watching how this process was working in the IT department and saying, hm, I wonder if this couldn’t work in marketing or in any kind of innovation.