And what you’re seeing here now is leaders that are not just naming the fear, they’re exploiting the fear without providing any kind of hope other done totally irrational hope, the kind of hope you generate by stocking lingering totalitarianism, the kind of hope that you generate by telling people that we are good and they are evil. SARAH GREEN CARMICHAEL: One part here is that people are arguing the leaders of equivalent of empty calories, sort of motivating people through fear. SARAH GREEN CARMICHAEL: That was Mark Blyth of Brown University and Gianpiero Petriglieri of INSEAD.